Here is an exchange from the Facebook wall of a purportedly Christian band. They asked people to post pictures for a #lovewins collage. Since that seemed like celebrating the subversion of constitutional democracy and the replacement of marriage with a delusional fiction, I asked them with surprise if I had been mistaken about them being Christian. Here is the disheartening result.
Notice the implications. It is difficult to go out and make disciples of the nations when a horde of people professing Jesus is following a step behind you, daggers poised over your back and thumbs on their lighters, waiting for you to open your Bible and start talking.
Bnonn Tennant A Christian’s authority is the Bible, and the Bible unequivocally condemns homosexual practice, while establishing Adam and Eve as the paradigm for marriage.
Lauren Swanner Bnonn, do you believe Jesus died for your sins? If so, do you believe he died for your sins and not others? Only God can judge.
Bnonn Tennant Lauren, what are you trying to say? That if Jesus died for sin, there is no longer any sin at all…? So you think we should abolish jails and stop judging thieves or other people who do wrong?
Ashley Howard Jesus came to abolish religion. He promoted a message of love for everyone.
Niicci Gebscribble Awful comparison. Being gay isn’t illegal. But theft is. Therefore jails can not be abolished.
Bia Croce God created LOVE, that’s what matters
Bnonn Tennant I didn’t say “illegal”; I said “wrong”. If Jesus came to abolish religion and promote a message of love for everyone, then why does he spend so much time preaching about sin and repentance? Why did he say he did not come to abolish the law?
If Jesus is just about love, then why isn’t he for pedophile love? Or incest? If love is all that matters, then any kind of love goes, right?
Niicci Gebscribble You made a comparison of being gay to being a thieve. Therefore you compared being gay to doing something illegal…but hey, I don’t really care about your beliefs anyway. Doesn’t affect me. #LOVEWON I just said you made a crappy comparison. So I’m done here
Bnonn Tennant Niicci, Yahweh (aka Jesus) made homosexual practice a capital crime for Israel, whereas a thief only had to pay back double what he took. You don’t seem to be taking God’s word as your authority.
Simon Pepe Pardy You’re paraphrasing a book that was written 3500 years ago, society and life has changed, I suggest you do too
Bnonn Tennant Simon, I’m speaking to people who believe that God’s word is true regardless of how old it is, because God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Niicci Gebscribble Then go live in Israel. This is America
Jesse Switters You lost all credibility when you pulled the incest/pedophile comparison. Some people Are good at sharing the gospel. Some even make a living from it…. you simply need to get better at it!
Bnonn Tennant Niicci, if you don’t believe the Bible is the word of God then why get involved in the discussion? I was speaking to Christians, not unbelievers.
Bnonn Tennant Jesse, unfortunately you lost all credibility when you tried to exclude certain kinds of love from acceptance. God is LOVE Jesse.
Ashley Harmon bnonn people are going to get married whether you like it or not, so suck it up.
Bnonn Tennant Ashley, are you a Christian?
Ashley Katlyn Fletcher I am a believer but I also believe that GOD MAKES NO MISTAKE and “gays/lesbians” as you call them (I just call them HUMAN) have a different genetic makeup that a heterosexual. They are BORN into their sexuality. I believe in loving as Jesus loves me regardless of if religion views my sexuality as wrong. Regardless if bigots and bullies can’t grasp that God is going to approve more of your love than your hate and judgement…well, that’s a YOU problem.
Bnonn Tennant Ashley, so you support pedophiles and sociopaths too, right, since God doesn’t make mistakes, and they were born that way also? You are not taking God’s word as your authority; you are taking modern liberal ideas about human nature as your authority and telling God he was wrong to condemn certain actions as sin, and to make marriage a certain way.
Cameron Selkirk Bnonn, why do you keep comparing Homosexuality to pedophilia and incest?
Jesse Switters You don’t speak to unbelievers? Well paint yourself a modern shade of Pharasee
Marina Martinez Let me tell you how ignorant you are. First off everyone is a sinner, just because you sin a different way doesn’t make you any better. You are not supposed to judge! These people are human. God loves all his children no matter what. He created them just the way they are. We all are human, stop fighting and start loving.
Bnonn Tennant Jesse, why interpret my words so uncharitably? This particular thread started as a discussion between believers about the authority of the Bible. Unbelievers don’t believe in the authority of the Bible.
Bnonn Tennant Marina, why are you judging me if you are not supposed to judge? Ironically, you are doing the exact thing that Jesus is talking about in the Sermon on the Mount: judging hypocritically, rather than with a right judgment (John 7:24).
Of course everyone is a sinner. I am no exception. The difference is that I take sin seriously. I try to avoid sin. I try to repent of sin. I try to preach against sin because I don’t want people to go to hell! But you approve of sin. You enable sin. You call evil good. God does not love evil, and not everyone is a child of God.
“By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.” (1 John 3:10)
Bnonn Tennant Cameron, surely it is obvious why I compare homosexuality to pedophilia and incest. Pedophiles and incestuous couples claim that they love each other. And people here are claiming that God is for love; that love is unconditional, that love is never wrong; that love wins.
So why not those kinds of love too?
Marina Martinez You’re right, I am a sinner but you know what? God still loves me at the end of the day. You try to avoid sin? But I bet you still sin every single day of your life. Maybe just maybe nobody knows the true word of God. You cannot speak for him. I don’t believe anyone should try to ever. God is good and Yes he does love all of his children.
Marina Martinez Pedophiles take advantage of children! They rape them and abuse them against their will. That is NOT love and if you think it is you have something wrong in your head.
Bnonn Tennant I do not need to speak for him. He has spoken for himself, and he has condemned homosexual practice as a gross evil, while establishing marriage as between a man and a woman.
Bnonn Tennant Marina, that’s not what pedophiles say. How can you presume to speak for them?
Dane Ramirez Hi Bnonn! Found this on Facebook. She took the words right out of my mouth. (Post not mine) Part 1
Dane Ramirez Part 2
Rachael O’Hare Ok to shed some light on bnonn’s ignorance, as Christian’s we know it’s wrong because that’s what the bible says. But God did not grant us the right to judge others that’s for him only. Also we don’t have the right to condemn homosexuals for their sins when we are not perfect ourselves.
Misty Dawn This guy is such a winner. If this dude is being what a god loving Christian is about then I will gladly burn in a firey brimstone. Pretty sure you are going to have a lot to answer to Bnonn at the end of your journey. Me and you might get to spend an eternity together. I can’t wait and you have been warned. :)
Russell Meixsel Divorce is also against the bible, and the punishment is that the wife should be stoned. Pre-marital sex is also against it, and a ton of other things. And you can’t compare pedophiles to gays. If two consenting adults want to sleep with each other, who cares if it’s the same sex? Why does someone else’s sex life affect you? If it does, your priorities are weird. It’s borderline creepy.
Marina Martinez No I am speaking for the innocent children that pedophiles rape and hurt.
Hannah Clinger As a Christian you are supposed to love people but it doesn’t mean you can approve of or support the sin.
Jessica-Lyn Saunders The worst part about this post is the fact that despite the fact that Rachel made this post to promote something good, it had to turn into a huge argument. Jesus didn’t judge others. Jesus isn’t upset that you love someone of the same sex. Can we also stop comparing homosexuality to pedophilia or incest? Homosexuality is different than those two things because unlike homosexuality, pedophilia and incest are WRONG. Being in love with someone of the same sex is not wrong, and I’m sick and tired of people like Bnonn trying to act as if he knows God personally and has talked to him about homosexuality and that he personally said its wrong. A lot of the bible is misinterpreted due to the fact that it was written by MEN and not God. So, unless God or his son come down and tell us Gays that we are going to hell or that we don’t belong on earth and don’t deserve happiness, then I think we should leave religion out of this entire subject. This subject is about love, not judgement.
Jessica-Lyn Saunders I’m not saying you have to agree with homosexuality. That’s your business, but this post isn’t about agreeing or disagreeing. It’s asking what “LoveWins” means to you. Shouldn’t that be what matters?
Bnonn Tennant Dane and Russell, I didn’t say we should execute gays. The laws of Israel were for Israel. But they did illustrate moral principles, including the sin of homosexual practice—and the punishment for homosexual practice was very severe. Paul reiterates that homosexuality is disordered and against God’s design. Indeed, he says in Romans 1 that homosexual desires are contrary to nature, dishonorable passions, and that homosexual practice is shameless and comes with a due penalty.
He ends with the warning:
“Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.”
Hence it is hard to take Misty’s “warning” seriously. Which should be more imposing—a warning from Misty, or a warning from God?
Bnonn Tennant Jessica, you said, “Jesus didn’t judge others.” But that is simply false. Jesus judged others all the time. Indeed, Jesus is the judge who will judge the world on the final day.
Can we also stop comparing homosexuality to pedophilia or incest?
When people stop trying to justify homosexuality because it is love, then I will stop holding you to your own standard.
Being in love with someone of the same sex is not wrong
God says it is.
I’m sick and tired of people like Bnonn trying to act as if he knows God personally
So you admit you don’t know God personally? Jesus said his sheep know him and hear his voice. That would explain why you aren’t listening to him when he speaks in the Bible.
Bnonn Tennant What #lovewins means is that Jesus will one day return and defeat evil. Including those who practice homosexuality, and those who approve of it (Romans 1).
Russell Meixsel And this is why I’m honestly not really religious. So many people want to shove the Bible down your throats. They create a bad rep.
Autumn Laskowski Bnonn, gay love is consent based. Pedophilia is not at all consent, it is rape. It’s not love.
And incest is generally rape as well.
So those were awful examples.
Autumn Laskowski Where in the Bible does Jesus ****PERSONALLY**** say that homosexuality is wrong?
So many people want to shove the Bible down your throats.
Suppose the Bible is actually God’s word. If that is true, as I believe, then it is grossly unfair to say I’m trying to shove it down your throat. What I’m actually trying to do is warn you about what God has said, because if you reject it, God says you are going to be punished forever in hell.
Bnonn, gay love is consent based. Pedophilia is not at all consent, it is rape. It’s not love.
Not according to NAMBLA. You need to read up on what pedophiles actually say. You wouldn’t let someone like me speak for homosexuals, because I oppose homosexuality; so why are you trying to speak for pedophiles?
Autumn Laskowski Uh, NAMBLA is one side of the equation. Small children can’t give consent. It doesn’t matter what the pedophile says, considering their the ones sexually assaulting people.
Jessica-Lyn Saunders Bnonn, if you’re against homosexuality, then why are you even on a post that promotes equal rights? If it bothers you that much, why are you here? Just because God says it is? What about divorce or working on Sundays or wearing two types of cloth or eating pork? All things people do on a daily basis yet you’re dead set on homosexuality being what’s going to ruin lives. Believe it or not, homosexuality has been around since the dawn of time. I’m sorry your ignorance can’t see that and I pray one day you wake up and realize that us being happy won’t ruin the world. Have a good day.
Autumn Laskowski Also you completely ignored my comment asking where Jesus personally says being gay is wrong in the Bible. (;
Dustin Lee Osborn Actually, Bnonn Tennant, god loves all his children unconditionally. Who are we to say what’s evil or not? Marina Martinez does not “approve of sin”. Thats pretty disrespectful and your assumptions make you look like a christian extremist. You can quote the bible all you want, bur at the end of the day, all you are is a sinner. Like all of us. God gave us free will. Leave those people to it. Its not YOUR PLACE to tell people what they can or can’t do, or how they live their lives.
Taylor Butterfield Bnonn, I’m with you on all of this. Homosexuality is a sin. With that being said I think Christians can and will support gay marriage, and that is wrong. But we’ve all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But His grace and mercy knows no end. If you are truly living a God centered life and reading your bible you would know homosexuality is a sin. But there’s nothing you can’t come back from. One of the biggest components of sin is that fact that you have to justify it. Jesus is love, and I love you all, I just believe differently than you.
Bnonn Tennant Sorry, Autumn, I missed that before. There are a lot of comments and I’m just one guy ;/
There are several issues we need to sort out there:
1. At a fundamental level, it really doesn’t matter whether Jesus personally said it or not, because Jesus didn’t write any part of the Bible. If you don’t believe the Bible when it records that homosexuality is wrong, why would you believe it if it recorded Jesus saying that homosexuality is wrong? You could just as easily say, “Those words were put in his mouth by his disciples, who were a product of their time.”
2. Leviticus 18 and 20, where homosexuality is condemned, begin with “and Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying”. So these are the very words of Yahweh. And Yahweh is Jesus. So on your own terms, Jesus has indeed condemned homosexuality from his own lips.
3. Jesus himself, in the gospels, affirms the fullness of the law, and that Scripture cannot be broken. So even if Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, he plainly affirmed the complete truthfulness and God-breathed nature of the entire Bible. And the Bible condemns homosexuality in other places.
Hannah Clinger For me as a Christian I know I am nothing but a worthless sinner but I am drenched in the grace and mercy that is found in Jesus Christ. I speak out about what the bible says because I love people enough to want them to know what is wrong and come to Christ and know his love.
Actually, Bnonn Tennant, god loves all his children unconditionally.
Indeed. But as 1 John 3:10 says, not everyone is a child of God. Many will say to Jesus on the last day, “Lord, Lord,” yet what will he say to them? That only those who do the will of his Father are actually his children.
Who are we to say what’s evil or not?
I’m not saying what’s evil. God is. Or do you not think we can know right from wrong, and that God has revealed it?
Its not YOUR PLACE to tell people what they can or can’t do
True. It is God’s place. Don’t shoot the messenger.
Stephanie Fick I’m a very christian person. Being a Christian does not mean that you cannot rejoice in the happiness of others. On Sunday, our pastor made sure that the first thing he said in church was, “Let us rejoice over the acceptance of our neighbors! Love Wins!” Jesus condemned no one. In fact, he opted to spend his time with those who felt like they were outcasts. It is not our job to judge anyone. It is our job to recognize love where it shows itself. It is our job to be happy for those who can finally be free. Leave the judgment up to God, and love everyone around you. “Be like Jesus” does not mean that we can pretend to have the same power that he does. “Be like Jesus simply means to spread love, happiness, and acceptance to those around you.
Bnonn Tennant Jessica, you’re making a lot of big assumptions about me, and a lot of ignorant assumptions about the place of the old covenant in a Christian’s life. I’m sorry you’re hurting at hearing God’s word, but conviction is a prerequisite to repentance. If you weren’t bothered by it, you couldn’t be saved from it.
Beth Abney Hi i just want to put my two cents in and try and clear up some things that are being said in this post. It is not my intent to offend anyone so if i do i am very sorry. (But to be honest the bible is offensive)
Something people were saying is Jesus doesnt make mistakes and that people are born the way that they are. I also agree with this, but not that homosexuality(and every other sin) isnt wrong. 2 things have to be made clear:
1.Ever since sin entered the world, everyone is born into sin and no one is without it
2. Sin does not come from God. It is something that entered world because of free will when man turned from God.
Many people are also saying that Jesus called us to love and not judge others, and i agree but loving someone does not mean you have to agree with their actions. Jesus made this clear in John 8:1-11. Jesus meets with an adulterous woman and her tells her than he wont condemn her for her actions but tells her “go, and from now on sin no more.” Jesus hung out with “the worst of the sinners” and he showed love towards them but him loving them did not mean the he thought that theyre sin was okay. He didnt, and he told them to turn from it.
Autumn Laskowski It’s important because religious people like to say “God says homosexuality is wrong”. And that’s not even proven. And it can’t be proven. So why care?
Hannah Clinger Not to be mean but the bible is God’s word, and it is written within the bible which is proof enough for me. I care about the souls of lost people enough to want them to be saved by God’s grace and Mercy.
Autumn Laskowski If you cared about people you’d stop being a dick to them.
Hannah Clinger And just how am I doing that? When your the one saying mean words. All I want is to spread God’s word. Without God I am nothing, and I do not want people to fall to the lies of the enemy. If people aren’t told about what is sinful, how are they ever to stop living like that and turn to God. I’m think about more than just life but eternity
Autumn Laskowski I called you a dick because you and Bnonn are beings dicks.
Autumn Laskowski You can be religious all you want, but go preach your little “saving people” speech to people who it doesn’t hurt.
Telling the LGBT community that who they are is wrong and sinful just hurts the community, and it definitely hurts the youths. These young kids already have enough issues, and there are already more than enough suicides among the LGBT community.
So how about, instead of running around telling people who they are is wrong, you do what religious people are supposed to do, and spread love and acceptance? And stop judging people. It’s not your job.
Autumn Laskowski LGBT people are not lost, and they don’t need to be saved.
Bnonn Tennant If you don’t believe the Bible is God’s word, why did you bother to comment on this thread? The whole point of it was to argue that Christians should take the Bible as their authority, and thus should oppose same-sex marriage.
Hannah Clinger I haven’t say one mean thing to anyone, but what your saying is.. So I don’t understand. You can say exactly how you feel and what you think is wrong but me stating my beliefs is suddenly hateful and judgmental? That’s wrong plus I’m not saying just homosexuals are sinful every human is sinful. I’m not judging just stating. Plus anyone who doesn’t have God is lost and we all need saving at one point in our lives. The world is indeed a dark place.
Autumn Laskowski You shouldn’t oppose same sex marriage Bnonn. You should accept gay people for who they are. And be loving, like your God intends.
Autumn Laskowski Every human may be sinful, but most sins can be easily stopped. Whether you believe it or not, people are born the way they are, and telling someone that a part of who they are is sinful is rude as hell.
Bnonn Tennant Who are you to speak for what God intends, given that you reject the authority of his word? Why are you trying to tell me what the Bible says when you don’t believe the Bible, let alone understand it?
God does not accept people for who they are. If he did, he wouldn’t have needed to send his Son to die for us.
Being loving does not mean loving evil. It means loving good. Love is ultimately unity with God—but God has no unity with sin. You are wrong because you do not know the Scripture, nor the power of God.
Hannah Clinger No it’s the truth. There are many sinful things humans do and God tells us we need to try to turn away from sin. Plus you can love someone and not accept the things they do.
Bnonn Tennant So Autumn, by your logic, psychopathy is not wrong and cannot be condemned, because being a psychopath is part of “who someone is”, and it’s “rude as hell” to tell that person that it is sinful?
Bnonn Tennant Michael, I’ve already addressed the place of the old covenant for Christians, and I agree that divorce is wrong. To be honest, that pastor, if he existed, simply did not understand the Bible; he was incompetent to teach.
Autumn Laskowski Bnonn…. You’re just….so dumb. Your comparisons are ridiculous.
Autumn Laskowski Yeah sure Hannah, you can love someone and not accept the things they do. But loving someone and not accepting who they are?? That’s a bit different.
Bnonn Tennant So instead of refuting my comparison, you call me names. But I’m the dick.
Autumn Laskowski Because your comparisons are so ridiculous and you don’t listen to anyone, so what’s the point of refuting it?
Autumn Laskowski You seem pretty set in your ways to live a strict, Christian life.
Autumn Laskowski And yes, you’re a dick. But did I ever say that I’m not one?
Bnonn Tennant I answered you on your own terms. If my comparison seems ridiculous, it is because the terms you set up are ridiculous.
Hannah Clinger I don’t accept the sin as right but I love the people.
Being loving does not mean loving evil. It means loving good. Love is ultimately unity with God—but God has no unity with sin. You are wrong because you do not know the Scripture, nor the power of God.
Bnonn, considering a really popular thing among religious people is this lovely “love the sinner but not the sin”, I would say it is your job to be loving and accepting of people.
Autumn Laskowski Yeah Hannah, my point was that telling people you love them but don’t accept them for who they are is not super helpful to people. You’re literally just hurting more than you’re helping.
Autumn Laskowski And Bnonn, the terms weren’t ridiculous, it’s you that’s ridiculous.
Being gay and being a psychopath are incredibly different. Just like every other comparison you’ve attempted to make.
Bnonn Tennant Autumn, I thought we established that the authority for a Christian was the Bible, not what is popular among religious people.
Where in the Bible do you find loving people equated with accepting their sin and not warning them of the coming judgment?
Hannah Clinger I’m saying I don’t accept what they do. I stand firm to what I believe. Jesus loved and spent time with many sinners, but he did not accept the sin it’s self and turned people away from sinful nature. I know people personally who are homosexual, I still love them but I can’t tell them that the lifestyle they are living is right. I am not hateful in anyway towards them but I do pray constant for them.
Autumn Laskowski In the bible, Jesus warned people of coming judgment Bnonn. Last time I checked, none of your are Jesus.
Autumn Laskowski It’s not a lifestyle Hannah.
Bnonn Tennant Autumn, you said that “people are born the way they are, and telling someone that a part of who they are is sinful is rude as hell.”
That is the principle you articulated. But when I start applying it to things you disagree with, suddenly my comparisons are “ridiculous”. Why? I’m just applying your principle consistently. Why aren’t you?
Bnonn Tennant Yeap, Jesus warned of the judgment coming upon those who do not do the will of his Father, which is clearly set out in both the Old and New Testaments, and includes abstaining from all kinds of sexual immorality, among which is homosexual practice.
Hannah Clinger I’m going to leave this here. Jesus loved us enough to die on the cross to save us from our sins. I will pray constantly for everyone who is far away from the love of God. He truly is a light in this haunted house of a world and I hope more people realize that before it’s too late. Have a nice day or night.
Autumn Laskowski Uh. Bnonn. It’s not that I disagree, it’s that being gay and being a psychopath are completely different.
Bnonn Tennant I think the conversation has run its course. It is bitterly disappointing to see so many people professing to love Jesus, but hating what he says.
He made it plain that many who call on his name will go into the outer darkness because they refused to do the will of his Father.
And the will of his Father is to honor his law. To honor his design for humankind. Including in the area of sexuality and marriage. He has made it very plain in both the Old and New Testaments that homosexuality is a particularly perverse kind of sexual immorality, and that the kingdom of heaven does not belong to anyone who practices it, nor who approves of it. You can look up Romans 1:24-31; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Matthew 7:21-23 if you’d like to check for yourselves.
Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is actually a follower of Jesus; only those who hear his voice and do as he says. Even though it’s unpopular. Even though the world hates them. Indeed, Jesus says plainly that if you don’t believe him—including if you don’t believe him about homosexuality being a sin—it is because you are not one of his sheep (John 10:26-27).
When the world loves you and approves of you, you aren’t on Jesus’ side.
“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.” (John 15:18-19)
There are many people in this thread claiming to be followers of Jesus who the world loves right now; meanwhile, the few of us who stand up for the truth of the Bible are being hated on.