Bnonn Tennant (the B is silent)

Where a recovering ex-atheist skewers things with a sharp two-edged sword

Abortion and the Holocaust

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7 minutes to read An informative exchange with an indignant pro-aborter.

Here is a brief exchange illustrating how some pro-abortion advocates tend to be blinded by their own emotional rhetoric so they cannot focus on moral reasoning.

Paul Attwood In 50 years the world will look at planned parenthood in the same way we look back at the Nazi’s death camps with horror and revultion

Petra Žagmajster Planned Parenthood and nazi death camps are not the same thing. They will never be the same. It’s really disrespectful thing to say.

Ed Hettman A holocaust is a holocaust. This one is far, far worse and far more of the blood of those selfishly murdered is crying out from the soil of the USA than Germany. The comparison is accurate despite whether you like it used or not.

Cory Taylor

The comparison is accurate…

No it isn’t. You cannot win an argument by doing that. It is a fallacy for a reason! Comparing abortion to Hitler is irrelevant, since it’s nothing but a diversionary tactic from your argument.

Bnonn Tennant It isn’t diversionary at all. It is precisely on point. http://abortionholocaust.org

Petra Žagmajster Abortionholocaust.org? Yes, and I’ll believe aliens exist if I read it on website Aliensarereal.com

Bnonn Tennant Is there something factually wrong on that site? If so, what?

Petra Žagmajster Not everything on the internet is true

Bnonn Tennant Therefore, I should doubt your doubting of that website. Which incidentally documents where it gets its data, unlike you.

Petra Žagmajster You should doubt my doubting of that website? No, you should accept the fact that I don’t believe you.

Bnonn Tennant What don’t you believe, specifically?

Petra Žagmajster Because your screwed up system would rather let a raped and pregnant 12 year old girl die at childbirth than let her have an abortion. Because she is not important. She is just an incubator for your screwed up ideas.

Bnonn Tennant Petra, I’m sorry, I’m not really following. I wouldn’t let a 12 year old girl die in childbirth if I could possibly help it. It’s a little hurtful that you think I would, like I am some kind of monster. I have a little girl myself who will be 12 in a few years.

But…when is an abortion ever necessary to prevent a 12 year old girl dying in childbirth? I’m not aware of any pregnancy-related health crisis in which abortion is the only possible treatment, let alone a childbirth-related crisis? It’s true that very rarely, such as in the case of some ectopic pregnancies, saving the mother’s life results in the death of her child—but that is not an abortion per se.

All this seems beside the point though. These are extremely rare, exceptional circumstances. The vast majority of abortions are done simply because the mother doesn’t want the child, doesn’t feel up to having a child, is pressured by family, etc. And organizations like Planned Parenthood facilitate this by telling her that the child is not really a child, but rather a “clump of cells”, that she is “empowered” by making a “choice” about her “bodily autonomy”, that abortion is “reproductive healthcare” and a “treatment”. As a result, 1.3 BILLION children have been killed by abortion since 1970. Are you disputing the figures? Or are you disputing that the Nazis used the same linguistic tactics to make killing Jews palatable to the general public by classing them as nonpersons? I don’t get where you’re coming from.

Petra Žagmajster Not a 12 year old but still, I bet an abortion could have saved her
http://sourcefed.com/woman-denied-abortion-dies/

Bnonn Tennant I can’t really comment on that case; from what I understand it was more complex than the article makes out. But again, even if abortion was a valid treatment there, this is an exceptionally rare circumstance in which the child was certain to die anyway.

But you keep avoiding my question. You said that it’s disrespectful to liken Nazi death camps to abortion. I’ve given reasons that the analogy is very valid. What specifically do you think I have gotten wrong?

Petra Žagmajster Because Hitler didn’t kill Jews, gay people etc because he was too poor to take care of them. Or because he knew they would endanger his life and he might die. Or because someone raped him and they were the result of that. Hitler was evil. Woman who can’t even feed herself and knows she doesn’t have any money for prenatal vitamins and all that pregnancy stuff (in case she wants to give it up for adoption)… She is NOT evil. Maybe she even wants a child, but she can’t have it because it would probably die of starvation. That woman is not evil. She is just in a very difficult situation.

Bnonn Tennant 1. You continue to focus on marginal cases. But abortion as a whole is not justified on the basis of marginal cases. It is justified on the basis of “bodily autonomy” and “fetuses aren’t persons”. That is precisely analagous to Hitler’s justification for the Final Solution, viz lebensraum and nonperson classifications. So while you might be very legitimately concerned about difficult pregnancy situations, these are simply a red herring in terms of the similarities between abortion and Nazism. To disprove those similarities, you would have to show that abortion is not typically justified by consent arguments and personhood arguments—which obviously you cannot do since we all know those are major pillars of the pro-abortion position.

2. It is also extremely rare for women to become pregnant without willingly engaging in an activity they know might get them pregnant. Namely sex. Your example is designed to tug our heartstrings, but you conveniently omit how this poverty-stricken woman got pregnant in the first place. In nearly all cases, she had sex with someone. But engaging in an activity that you know might put someone’s life at risk (in this case her child’s) makes you responsible if someone’s life does, in fact, end up at risk. You don’t have a right to put people’s lives at risk.

3. Moreover, a situation has to be outrageously extreme before killing your child can be considered permissible. You try to make out that a woman is not evil for murdering her baby if she cannot care for it. But obviously it is evil. Murdering the child you are supposed to protect is in fact a paradigm example of a wicked thing to do. There is almost always some alternative. So in nearly every kind of situation similar to your example, the mother is evil—contrary to your flat denial of this. Indeed, she is doubly evil: first for deliberately putting her child in that situation, and second for then killing it.

You are trying to make emotional appeals to short-circuit our moral reasoning. But that is not virtuous behavior. That’s not commendable. Especially when children’s lives are at stake. With stakes that high, we cannot afford to have our judgment clouded by hysterical rhetoric; we have a serious obligation to carefully and thoughtfully reason through the issues.

Petra Žagmajster I’m trying to say that these things happen. Extreme situations happen. What would you do? Imagine you were single, homeless, unemployed, starving, raped and pregnant. What would you do? You said there must be an alternative. Here’s your chance. Come up with a plan. Maybe you can think of something nobody else did.

Bnonn Tennant Petra, none of what you’re saying is responsive to the reasons I have given that:

1. Abortion is directly analagous to the Holocaust.

2. A woman who commits abortion, even in extreme circumstances, is still a murderer and therefore still evil.

Petra Žagmajster Listen, I’m tired of this. This is going nowhere. You sound like a horrible, narrow-minded person. I’m glad I’m not a part of your family.

Bnonn Tennant Petra, it’s going nowhere because you have repeatedly refused to reason with me. You are doing the online equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling that you’re right and I’m wrong. You call me horrible and narrow-minded—yet it is you who is blindly insisting that women be allowed to murder their children. Name-calling is what people do when they don’t have an argument, but they are too hard-hearted to change their minds.

Petra Žagmajster I just stated the facts. You sound like a horrible, narrow minded person. That is the fact. Even if an abortion could save a woman’s life, you would stop it. You would torture her by making her carry her rapist’s child. And you’d call her Hitler if she said she wanted an abortion. If you don’t see what’s wrong with that… You are beyond help. Now I’m leaving because this is pointless. Goodbye.

Bnonn Tennant Actually I called into question whether it is ever medically necessary to have an abortion to save a woman’s life. Since I am not a doctor, I defer to their medical opinion, which contradicts your non-expert one: http://www.dublindeclaration.com

You continue to attack my character, even saying I would call a woman Hitler for having an abortion. Yet I never said any such thing, as you would know if you were reading my words with charity and care, rather than with blind prejudice and hate. I compared the abortion industry to the Holocaust; not individual women to Hitler. That was perfectly plain. You have consistently failed to even acknowledge the direct analogies I raised, let alone refute them, preferring instead to hysterically rant about imaginary fringe cases that do nothing to counter the real majority issue, and nonexistent medical cases that do nothing to justify the actual reasons that thousands of pre-born children are coldly burned or torn to death every day.

Can I ask you a question? Have you had an abortion?

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